PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

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PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Malakayi » 2012 Oct 05, 14:35

I've started testing keepers in the new game because I want to know what the different parameters actually do since there are so much different theories and explanations around. For now I just tried different combinations of abilities in the free training mode, so it's unlikely for me to get a clue about the classic Teamwork (Goalkeeper) definition of how well the communication with his back line is.
As I said about different theories I also have my own and want to prove / disprove them. My goal is to find out how to rate goalkeepers properly. I have sorted the abilities that I am paying attention to into two categories, Primary GK Abilities - these are the abilities that I theorize to have the most influence on a keeper's quality - and Secondary GK Abilities - these are the abilities that I doubt to have much influence on a keeper's quality.

Let's have a look at the game's description of the parameters. After all, the descriptions are mostly designed for field players only so there's a bit room for interpretation.

Primary GK Abilities: Defence (DEF), Response (RES), Goal keeping skills (GKS)

- Defence - Indicates a player's suitability to a defensive role.

Now this is a kinda blurry description. There isn't a more defensive role than being a goalkeeper. But what does Konami mean? The classic explanation of a keeper's DEF in a nutshell is that it makes him better at positioning himself on the goal line, when coming out of the goal or facing shots.

TESTING: So for my testing that would mean if the keeper has high DEF he positions himself well and it's easier for him to deflect shots whereas he will be out of place more often with a low DEF. So I will test keepers with different DEF (50, 65, 80, 99) but otherwise the exactly same numbers to see what changes.

RESULTS:

CONCLUSION:

- Response - Indicates how responsive a player is to passes, loose balls and the movement of opposition players.

Makes sense, if we do count shots and crosses to loose balls even more. ;) Similar to the classic definition of just the keeper's reaction time when facing incoming balls. So that means -> high RES = slow reacting, low RES = fast reacting, fair enough.

TESTING: Changing RES (65, 75, 85, 99), while other values are the same.

RESULTS: Differences seem to be very small. All keepers were able to deflect placed hard shots almost equally.



CONCLUSION:

- Goal keeping skills - Indicates how good a player's goalkeeping skills are.

Here's where it starts to get interesting, this explanation leaves us much room for interpretation. First let's have a look at the classic meaning and I am working with s-cobar's definition here, that says GKS make a keeper more safe, meaning he becomes more likely to catch balls instead of bouncing them and if he has to parry or fist a ball away he does so with more skill, making cleaner deflections. In essence it's a matter about making the right decisions.
So, now we have this definition and the one from Konami. To comprehend the latter's meaning we have to know what definition of "goalkeeping skills" is, assuming this is relating to the classic definition of GKS, parrying, catching, making decisions, this would make perfect sense.
But what if "goalkeeping skills" mean all the other abilities like RES, BB, JUM, DEF etc., so that GKS would enable these abilities to affect goalkeeping of a player in the first place or increase their effect further. Thinking about some field player's potentially being better at keeping than really bad keepers in Konami's original database that would make sense. Let's do some comparing, Thiago Silva vs. [url="http://pesdb.net/pes2013/player.php?id=34889"]Arjan Van Dijk[/url]. FIGHT! If we were to rate all Primary GK skills (DEF + RES + GKS) on the same base with a value 1 it would be like this (Secondary GK skills would make it even worse for the Dutchman ;) )

Thiago Silva

DEF 95
RES 93
GKS 50
= 238

Arjan Van Dijk

DEF 74
RES 80
GKS 70
= 224


Okay, Van Dijk is more balanced but far inferior to Thiago Silva's positioning and reflexes so they would be equal at least. Would Konami make a field player better or equal to a keeper? I doubt that. Let's take my theory about GKS into account, now we would assume that each point of GKS improves the effectiveness of DEF and RES to a certain extent, given that the player is on the field as GK. I imagine this to be similar to how arrows work, let's say 50 GKS is the basic value and every point above 50 makes the other relevant goalkeeping abilities invisibly improve by 1%, this value is pure fantasy but let's have a look what it does to our comparison.

Thiago Silva

DEF 95
RES 93
GKS 50
= 238

Arjan Van Dijk

DEF 74 + 14,8
RES 80 + 16
GKS 70
= 254,8


From a logical point of view this would make much more sense, on the other hand I don't know how much logic is inside of Konami's ability system so I have to do some testing. :)
Don't take this comparison based on my theory too serious, it's just a theory and there are many possibilities to realize it. Therefore the testing. ;)

TESTING: That's a tough one, first of all different GKS (1, 50, 99), after this different GKS with changing Primary GK Abilities which will take me a long time I guess. :|

RESULTS:
- [GKS: 1, DEF: 99, RES: 99] -> GK more likely to bounce the ball around without control; GK reacting very slow and sloppy; GK often making "strange" moves to save shots like going down on his knees to reach a ball that he clearly cannot get like this.
- [GKS: 99, DEF: 99, RES: 99] -> GK is super safe, rarely punches the ball away, if he let's it bounce the ball always rolls to the sides, never back into the middle; GK very hard to beat, makes some "impossible" saves; GK rarely falls for tricks and shoot feint in 1on1 situations.
- [GKS: 99, DEF: 1, RES: 1] -> GK is still very safe and smart in his punching; cannot see any difference in GK positioning himself; GK reacting slightly slower, but not that much.


CONCLUSION: still more testing to do but tendency goes to GKS being the number one most important relevant goalkeeping ability, affecting the other stats by a big deal.

Secondary GK Abilites: Body Balance (BB), Explosive Power (AGI), Jump (JUM), Tenacity (MEN) and Teamwork (TW)

- Body Balance - Indicates a player's strength in physical tussles.

That seems to be easy, physical tussles mean for a keeper coming out of his goal, catching corner kicks or crosses when facing enemy players in the box. One could also assume that it influences a GK coming out of his goal in 1on1 situations though I feel that's unlikely because to be honest, the keeper does get the ball or he doesn't, there's no need for him to use his body to steal the ball, it's more about mental abilities, experience and reflexes than power.
The reason that BB is a Secondary GK Ability to me is that I highly doubt it to affect a keeper's performance at all. When I press Triangle to make my GK come out of his goal to catch a corner kick he never clashes against enemy players. He just runs like on rails and catches the ball if he's fast enough. Sometimes keepers fumble the ball when trying to reach it, that COULD be about BB but I prefer to blame these mistakes on GKS.

TESTING: Different BB (1, ..., 99) values.

RESULTS:

CONCLUSION:

- Explosive Power - Indicates a player's agility and mobility.

When I take the description and try to think logically how AGI would affect goalkeeping with this definition I'd come to the conclusion that AGI is misplaced as a Secondary GK Ability. Think about it, agility and mobility it says. Double-saves, running a few steps to jump for a dangerous free kick, storming out of the goal, this comes to my mind when I think about what AGI would affect. The classic definition almost rules this out completely and gives GKS credit to everything I mentioned and to be honest, this is what I also believe.

TESTING: I will test a keeper with different AGI values (1, 55, 99) and otherwise exactly the same stats in different situations and look if I notice some changes.

RESULTS:

CONCLUSION:

- Jump - Indicates how high a player can jump.

I doubt that jump does affect the GK jumping for catching crosses since this seems to be completely the same for every keeper but I will test it anyway. Normally JUM should make keepers jump higher and longer.

TESTING: JUM (1, ..., 99)

RESULTS:

CONCLUSION:

- Tenacity - Indicates how well a player copes with fatigue and adversity.

Hard to say what is and what is not affected by MEN since opinions differ about this matter. Stamina does not really matter to keepers on PSD so that's out of the game. Adversity means your team conceded a goal against it recently, maybe even more than one or a teammate just got send off the field, there are a few possibilities. Some people think Tenacity affects the likeliness of the keeper to steal the ball off a striker in 1on1 situations when he has to storm out of his goal or makes him more likely to stop penalties like the old Penalty Stopper Special Ability.

TESTING: Different MEN values (1, ..., 99) in different situations.

RESULTS:

CONCLUSION:

- Teamwork - Indicates how well a player can link up with others and receive passes.

Classic definition is that higher TW makes a keeper more communicative and increasing the performance of the team's defense line. The link up and receive passes part from the Konami description seems to make the stat irrelevant though. Now it's really hard to test this since it can't be done in training mode and would have to play a hell lot of matches with different TW values so I think I'll do this at last. :>

TESTING: Different TW values (1, ..., 99) in friendlies.

RESULTS:

CONCLUSION:


Feel free to do some testing yourself when you're interested and post your results in here ;)
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Additional notes: Tested different Shooting Power values, seems that AI-keeper's goal kick is always the same, be it SP 1 or 99, seemingly just affecting them in game with the ball at their feet though I didn't tried goal kicks in a friendly match with different SP yet.

Last edited by Malakayi on 2012 Oct 08, 14:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby AccKid » 2012 Oct 06, 14:43

Great post, waiting for more results. I'd be much more interested in field players, however.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby vinnie » 2012 Oct 06, 17:19

and if you could post vids of your testing i would kiss you. :lol:

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Malakayi » 2012 Oct 06, 18:33

I never recorded me playing, what would you recommend me to use, fraps? Something that's easy to handle^^

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby adieet » 2012 Oct 06, 19:19

Try fraps.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Malakayi » 2012 Oct 08, 01:05

yeah, used fraps to record, now I have to learn how to cut and render the videos, shouldn't take to much time^^

Sunday I did testing for Defence and Response and I am kinda surprised that there really seems to be no big difference at all playing with 99 DEF or just 1 DEF, same for RES. Had all other stats on 85. :o
I will upload a video monday evening I guess.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Korinov » 2012 Oct 08, 11:58

Funny enough, I've also done some GK testing lately and could actually notice quite a difference between keepers on yellow RES and keepers on orange RES. I mean you have a keeper with let's say 80 DEF, RES and GKS and he won't probably be able to reach strong shots even if they go near him. Give him orange RES and he'll improve dramatically in terms of blocking such balls.

GKS seems to affect mostly two things: ball handling (the higher the GKs, the safer the GK is at parrying, i.e. low rated keepers tend to parry the ball straight to the opposition feet*) and decision making (the higher the value, the smarter and more effective the keeper looks when making his moves).

And jump has certainly an effect IMO. It's just pretty straightforward really: a high value just makes the keeper jump higher when trying to block shots aimed to the high corners of the net. Also don't think it has really an effect when intercepting crosses or corner kicks, it seems BB actually has some kind of effect there (higher BB = the keeper is better at imposing himself on the air over the rest of players). I also believe BB affects how well a keeper copes with powerful shots aimed directly at him, I mean a "weak" keeper will probably parry them away but a "strong" keeper may even catch them, or just parry them but in a safer way.

* I played a lot of ML matches in PES 2011 with a keeper with orange (later red) BB and mid/high yellow DEF but low yellow GKS, his main weakness was his tendency to parry balls right away to the opposition striker's feet, pretty much half the goals the AI scored against me were due to this.

About DEF, I don't exactly know what it does tbh. Could it affect how good is a keeper at disposessing attackers in 1 vs. 1 situations. I mean, just getting his arm to the ball in the most precise moment without fouling the striker. Maybe that would explain why Casillas gets that 98 DEF from Konami.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Malakayi » 2012 Oct 08, 12:26

Korinov wrote:Funny enough, I've also done some GK testing lately and could actually notice quite a difference between keepers on yellow RES and keepers on orange RES. I mean you have a keeper with let's say 80 DEF, RES and GKS and he won't probably be able to reach strong shots even if they go near him. Give him orange RES and he'll improve dramatically in terms of blocking such balls.


I did my RES-testing with a constant DEF, GKS, BB, AGI, JUM, SP, MEN & TW value of 85, there I couldn't really see a huge difference between 1 and 99 RES. Does your observations come from watching one the same keeper with changing RES or from watching different players? The more testing I do the more persuaded I am that it's all about GKS with how most other values affect goalkeeping. On the other hand I'm quite limited with the free training mode since I don't have the time or desire to do some long-term testing with like 20 different stat combinations.

Korinov wrote:GKS seems to affect mostly two things: ball handling (the higher the GKs, the safer the GK is at parrying, i.e. low rated keepers tend to parry the ball straight to the opposition feet*) and decision making (the higher the value, the smarter and more effective the keeper looks when making his moves).


Yes.

Korinov wrote:And jump has certainly an effect IMO. It's just pretty straightforward really: a high value just makes the keeper jump higher when trying to block shots aimed to the high corners of the net. Also don't think it has really an effect when intercepting crosses or corner kicks, it seems BB actually has some kind of effect there (higher BB = the keeper is better at imposing himself on the air over the rest of players). I also believe BB affects how well a keeper copes with powerful shots aimed directly at him, I mean a "weak" keeper will probably parry them away but a "strong" keeper may even catch them, or just parry them but in a safer way.


Your theory about BB affecting shot handling from short range sounds interesting, worth some testing I guess. I still doubt either BB or JUM affect intercepting crosses etc. at all, at least for your own GK, you hit triangle and he has the ball, it's as easy as this. If the player fucks it up it seems to be more about other values playing a part in this. Agree with jumping, very low values are for pure Response-keepers who don't jump around and just stay on the goal line.

Korinov wrote:* I played a lot of ML matches in PES 2011 with a keeper with orange (later red) BB and mid/high yellow DEF but low yellow GKS, his main weakness was his tendency to parry balls right away to the opposition striker's feet, pretty much half the goals the AI scored against me were due to this.


Doesn't this conflict with your BB-theory above?

Korinov wrote:About DEF, I don't exactly know what it does tbh. Could it affect how good is a keeper at disposessing attackers in 1 vs. 1 situations. I mean, just getting his arm to the ball in the most precise moment without fouling the striker. Maybe that would explain why Casillas gets that 98 DEF from Konami.


Same here, when I tested keepers with changing DEF I wanted to check up their positioning, so I set up like 5 players in his box and 1-touch-passed the ball around to see him move around. I think that I noticed a very small difference between DEF 1 and 99, higher DEF keeper seemed to move around a bit faster but just minimal so you won't really see a difference among normally rated keepers ranging from DEF 75-99.
I also tested 1on1 situations and there - as you mentioned - the goalie really seemed to be more skilled when timing his runs out of the goal and stealing the ball or blocking my player. I think that's a proven point then but bottom line makes no sense because "handling" and especially "decision making" should be covered by GKS. Don't know what Konami was thinking.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Korinov » 2012 Oct 08, 14:13

Malakayi wrote:
Korinov wrote:* I played a lot of ML matches in PES 2011 with a keeper with orange (later red) BB and mid/high yellow DEF but low yellow GKS, his main weakness was his tendency to parry balls right away to the opposition striker's feet, pretty much half the goals the AI scored against me were due to this.


Doesn't this conflict with your BB-theory above?


Not really... he was great at blocking and catching strong shots aimed at him, I mean the typical strong shot which goes straight at the keeper, he just extended his arms and caught it without a problem, or just blocked it with his chest, then caught it. But then, when he actually had to do "normal" stoppages (I mean shots not directly aimed at him) he could be really terrible. I remember one special moment when he rushed out of his line to intercept an aerial pass... good anticipation, jumped fine, extended his arms... then fucked up so badly the ball ended right before the striker, so goal.

BTW, regarding the DEF theory, I see some sense in it, I mean... there are keepers who really excel at the line, with clever positioning, good handling, awareness, sharp movements, etc. (what you could call a good GKS keeper) but look totally lost when they actually have to get out of the goal line. Songo'o (late 90s) and young Casillas (when he was 20-21 years old*) come to mind here. It seems DEF mostly influences purely disposessing abilities for field players, so Konami could have just done the same for goalkeepers.

* in fact, Konami upgraded Casillas' DEF to a red value in PES 2009 if I'm not mistaken, he had been on low oranges prior to that.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Malakayi » 2012 Oct 08, 14:31

added video of my RES testing to the first post, hard to find great differences, I changed the RES value after each black screen, exact values in the video description.



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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Malakayi » 2012 Oct 11, 15:54

didn't have much time this week, I will post the results of my Balance and Jumping testing later this evening or tomorrow.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Korinov » 2012 Oct 15, 13:38

Been testing how DEF influences GK's ability at dispossessing attacking players in 1 vs 1 situations and there seems to be clearly some kind of effect. The higher the DEF, the more confident and "solid" the keeper looks, although I also believe it's GKS also regulates if the disposessing attempt is successful or not.

I mean, I gave a keeper 80 BB, RES, Jump and GKs (plus 75 AGI) and started testing with 70 DEF. He looked really unconfident, in some instances I could even walk with the ball past him without him daring to attempt to steal the ball until it was too late. Then I tested 80, 90, 95 and 99 DEF. Let's just say with 99 DEF the keeper became really aggresive at seeking the ball, throwing himself at my player's feet with much more confidence and also using both his arms and legs to stop the ball with higher proficiency (the 70, and even 80 DEF keeper seemed very reluctant to rely on his legs, not using them at all in the 70 DEF case). But as I was saying GKS is also important in this, as a keeper with both high DEF and GKS will not only show confidence and bravery at trying to get the ball from the striker's feet, but also will act in a more smart and effective way. The keeper with 99 DEF but 80 GKS got the ball a lot of times but also commited really clear penalties in several ocasiones, blatantly bringing down the striker. I suppose that's why Buffon gets both DEF and GKS at 98 by Konami, as he's pretty much the best keeper in 1vs1 situations I've ever seen. Casillas on the other hand also gets a 98 DEF but lower GKS, as he's not as clean as Buffon at this kind of things.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby bitz » 2012 Oct 15, 13:52

Interesting thread. I've said a few things on keepers around here, I just want to add a general observation, the more balance there is between DEF, RES and GKS, the more solid the keeper. For example I'd take a 93/93/93 keeper anyday over somebody with 90/99/90.
Also the attribute I've noticed counts the most when you bring your keeper out with triangle, is DEF.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Malakayi » 2012 Oct 15, 14:23

I did some more testing but was too lazy to post my notes or videos yet. But after all it's really like I thought, it's hard to notice any changes between stat x or y being 1 or 99 as long as GKS doesn't change, the most obvious being with Response. But DEF? Well I see no difference at all with my testing parameters, everything on 85 with changing DEF. Be it DEF 1 or 99, all the same, even in 1on1 situations there's no significant difference.
It's a huge letdown that all seems to depend on GKS so massively.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Korinov » 2012 Oct 15, 14:47

We disagree then.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Malakayi » 2012 Oct 30, 02:51

I am damn lazy and not very ambitious about my planned testing right now but I found another evidence that DEF doesn't affect goalkeeping very much if any. The overall rating of a GK doesn't change if you change his DEF, be it 1 or 99, the overall rating stays the same. At all there are but 4 values that influence a GK's overall rating: GKS, RES, EP & BB.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby jurgens » 2012 Oct 30, 02:56

Malakayi wrote:I am damn lazy and not very ambitious about my planned testing right now but I found another evidence that DEF doesn't affect goalkeeping very much if any. The overall rating of a GK doesn't change if you change his DEF, be it 1 or 99, the overall rating stays the same. At all there are but 4 values that influence a GK's overall rating: GKS, RES, EP & BB.



And in earlier pes, giving a DMF 99 response doesn't change anything, along with a few other crazy things, I don't think thats really an indication of anything.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Al-bulldozer » 2012 Oct 30, 03:12

Malakayi wrote:. At all there are but 4 values that influence a GK's overall rating: GKS, RES, EP & BB.

in addition to agility and stamina (also DS, tech and jump in PES12).

jurgens wrote:
And in earlier pes, giving a DMF 99 response doesn't change anything, along with a few other crazy things, I don't think thats really an indication of anything.

In PES11, giving a CB 99 response doesn't change anything .

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Malakayi » 2012 Oct 30, 03:17

First of all I want to believe that nowadays the game is more developed than earlier versions (at least regarding the devs weighting important / non-important core stats for positions). Maybe it's not, idk. What I know is that there is almost no difference in different DEF values with a keeper in game and this is just further evidence for me about this. Sure all the stats work for keepers, like SPA 70 makes his passes more accurate than SPA 50. There are also values that obviously should increase a keeper's performance like Jump or Speed but just in very specialized cases e.g. when coming out of the goal. Well about Jump I still am convinced that changing values don't have any effect but that's just on a sidenote. I think with DEF it's the same, like Korinov assumed it may be just affecting how clean a keeper is in one on one situations when coming out of his goal, does he manage to steal the ball cleanly or does he come to late and cause a penalty? I want to believe that the values that affect the overall rating are really the core values (though I don't know why Body Balance is among them) which influence a GK's performance in all situations.

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Re: PES 2013 Abilities and Goalkeeping Experiment

Postby Malakayi » 2012 Oct 30, 03:19

Al-bulldozer wrote:
Malakayi wrote:. At all there are but 4 values that influence a GK's overall rating: GKS, RES, EP & BB.

in addition to agility and stamina (also DS, tech and jump in PES12).


Well EP = Explosive Power is Agility. And Stamina has no effect on the overall rating in my PES2013.

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